Wednesday, March 24, 2010

“What is WRONG with you people!”

So my See no SIV post got some comments on another forum. This is one from Claus Jensen

Kevin Sullivan,

What is WRONG with you people!

You post a couple of EMs, claim that we're looking at "SIV" because they look the same when they are cloned or something like that. Zero references. Montagnier also has an EM of budding "HIV", and you know what, when the genetic material was "cloned" and the particles from transfected cells were EM'ed they looked fairly similar to that original EM.

What exactly do you think are you adding with your SIV analogy ?

Your so-called "SIV" seems to cause disease when it is injected into a different monkey species, "HIV" doesn't seem to do very much when injected into chimps.

How exactly does that support your argument from analogy?
Let me tell you what would be nice: a couple of references where they inoculated a monkey with their deadly "SIV" or better even "SHIV", let him loose in a captive (has to be captive because it doesn't happen in the wild, coincidentally) colony and watched how the new monkey plague spread and decimated that colony via unprotected sex.

Can you do that, master analogist? Then maybe we can finally get somewhere.”

Claus, yes I put a couple of EM pictures of the pre cloned and cloned virus. I am sorry my brief referencing format author’s last name in year. I will gladly give you the pubmed links to the articles you request.

The EM of in the lymphnode of Macaque239 is from this paper titled “Isolation of T-cell tropic HTLV-III-like retrovirus from macaques” Daniel et al. 1985 in the journal Science.

The EM of cloned SIVmac239 is from this paper “The SIVmac239 Pr55Gag isoform, SIV p43, suppresses proteolytic cleavage of Pr55Gag.” Nicholson et al., 2007 in the journal Virology.

I brought up this point because somewhere some of the criteria of the PG called for was that there be an EM before and after isolation and they must look alike. These pictures validating that point. Dr. Turner states the following

“ To prove the existence of a new (“novelty”) retrovirus first you must:

1. Have proof for the existence of particles bearing all the morphological characteristics of retroviruses.

2. Prove the particles have unique biochemical constituents (proteins and RNA but no DNA).

3. Prove the particles are infectious, that is, the introduction of particles into a cell culture results in the appearance of particles with the identical morphology and biochemical constituents (proteins and RNA) as the parental particles.”

Thank you for agreeing that some of this has already been accomplished, particularly part 3. Montagnier also has an EM of budding "HIV", and you know what, when the genetic material was "cloned" and the particles from transfected cells were EM'ed they looked fairly similar to that original EM."

You state “Your so-called "SIV" seems to cause disease when it is injected into a different monkey species, "HIV" doesn't seem to do very much when injected into chimps.”

My argument is not about chimps. I talk about SIVmac in macaques from a virus that has been shown to come from a sooty mangabey, the same monkey that gave rise to HIV-2 in humans. Not all HIVs are the same, hopefully you appreciate this (or at least allow this distinction). I will discuss the macaque data here. I will discuss this topic first and once sufficiently debated by both sides we can move on to the chimps you are so interested in. Mind you I want to finish my longer reply to the PG fist as they are patiently waiting.

“Let me tell you what would be nice: a couple of references where they inoculated a monkey with their deadly "SIV" or better even "SHIV", let him loose in a captive (has to be captive because it doesn't happen in the wild, coincidentally) colony and watched how the new monkey plague spread and decimated that colony via unprotected sex.”

I will provide you with some links to papers for what you request, papers on the natural circulation of SIVmac in cohorts of macaques across the United States. This is from retrospective analysis. Keep in mind since we cannot ask the monkey, I cannot tell you whether transmission occurred through fighting, breast feeding, birth, or sex or any other route. We can show the virus was circulating before it was isolated, even before the discovery of HIV. SHIVs are artificial and do not replicate as well as SIVmac in macaques. There are no free circulating strains because this could cause problems at primate centers. If you want to get into the molecular biology of SHIVs I suggest we do so later as it is a very complex and technical area.

One theory of how SIV from a sooty mangabey got into captive macaques is presented by Christian Apetrei, I would consider him an expert on the free circulation of SIVs in captivity. This is an opinion piece as some important data was not taken or has been lost to time.

Kuru experiments triggered the emergence of pathogenic SIVmac.” Journal AIDS 2006

That hypothesis came from his careful work on the natural circulation of SIVs in macaques and sooty mangabeys. He traced the spread of SIVmac from the Davis primate center across the country. The paper is titled “Molecular epidemiology of simian immunodeficiency virus SIVsm in U.S. primate centers unravels the origin of SIVmac and SIVstm.” Journal of virology, 2005.

Here is a map and timeline of the spread. (for facebook viewers see linked blog at bottom of the post for all images)


Work at tracing the spread of SIV in the cohort of macaques at the New England Primate Center first was done by. Dr. Daniel “Prevalence of antibodies to 3 retroviruses in a captive colony of macaque monkeys.” International journal of cancer, 1988

This was followed up by Dr. Mansfield “Origins of simian immunodeficiency virus infection in macaques at the New England Regional Primate Research Center.”Published in the Journal of medical primatology in 1995. If you want to see the timeline of the New England outbreak I can scan the document and upload it to my blog.

The passage history of the SIVmac251 and SIVmac239 can be found in Ringler et al. “Simian Immunodefficiency Virus-Induced Meningoencephalitis: Natural history and retrospective study” Annals of Neurology 1988 . Again if you are interested in the figure I can put it online.

When you ask “What exactly do you think are you adding with your SIV analogy?”

I am presenting a case where a virus which is strikingly close to HIV-2 causes immunodeficiency in macaques. The sooty mangabey SIVs got into both humans and macaques and caused similar diseases. Your group makes the clam that HIV does not exist, due to the failure of its isolation and a few other sticking points. Animal data clearly proves beyond any doubt that SIVmac239 is an immunodeficiency virus. When similar sequences (coming from the same natural reservoir) are found in humans with the same immune problems your group claims it does not exist. No one has come out and explicitly stated the Perth Group’s opinion on these viruses. I believe that this is because it is a difficult subject to discuss as it forces them to either accept or deny this animal data and commit to a specific point of view. I cannot say that SIVmac is the smoking gun to prove HIV exists. You are right. However examples of the smoking gun in science are rare. Normally theories are built up and refined over time slowly. This is just another piece of evidence to my argument. Is it required, no, but it does help make my point. Hopefully, some neutral bystanders will agree.

Also I hope these links on the natural spread of SIVmac are sufficient. There are a few others. I would suggest using NCBI Pubmed to find others.

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